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Build talk:Team - Physical Hero Team
The Para bar won't work well on a hero, and there's little reason to have it since SoH has no synergy with it. Inferior to other setups. -- 22:37, January 24, 2010 (UTC) : The para actually does work pretty well and SoH is for the other melee in the team Notorious BW 22:39, January 24, 2010 (UTC) ::The synergies aren't exactly through the roof. In something like sabway, all the necros benefit off the huge amounts of minions, which interact with a bunch of the AoE skills they bring. -- 22:55, January 24, 2010 (UTC) :::I realize that my build probably isn't as effective as something like sabway/discordway but I feel like it gives people another option to run that is still pretty effective. And I'm not particularly happy with the Sos mopper build. I specced into channeling for splinter weapon and then I had a hard time decided on an elite so i just went with SoS. Notorious BW 23:20, January 24, 2010 (UTC) 4-4 imo.--Ikimono "...And my axe!" 00:59, January 25, 2010 (UTC) :I like the rit (I always run something similar but Rt/Mo and with Strength of Honor/Smite hex/castigation sig on it - you can find a whole list of options for it in this build Build:Rt/any_SoS_Channeling_Rit). Orders is so-so. But, i'm not sure about the paragon build, apart from a few crits it doesn't really benefit physicals too much. You might want to at least make the Leadership on the Para an even number (so you either gain 5 energy per shout with 10, or 6 energy per shout with 12. - AthrunFeya - 02:01, January 25, 2010 (UTC) ::Anthem of envy provides a solid damage boost to the physicals and spirits, "Stand your ground!" can protect your party until SY! is up, and "We Shall return!" is pretty useful since its one of the only rezes in the build. The stance removal is also quite helpful when facing annoying blocking stances and Fall Back! just makes moving between each group go by faster. And thats true about the leadership on the para, i didn't think of that. The problem is even if you lower the attribute by 1 you cant put those points anywhere else. So i guess the best option would be to put a major rune on there. Overall I'm pretty happy with the paragon but i'm all ears if anyone has any better suggestions. Notorious BW 02:20, January 25, 2010 (UTC) :::I think it would be better if you replaced the Orders necro with classic D/N Orders (Heroes use the derv build super-humanly) and used aggressive refrain on the paragon - the Paragon's roll should be to support the other melee, that means high command and spear mastery with 10 to 12 leadership. It looks good now but the Elite in place of soldiers could be anything from Stunning Spear to Anthem of Fury.Rikk Panda 02:29, January 25, 2010 (UTC) Signet of Removal is such a random elite. [[User:Karate Jesus|'Karate']] [[User_talk:Karate Jesus|'Jesus']] 02:56, 25 January 2010 :I didn't go with the D/N orders because then i would be missing out on SoH and some solid condition/hex removal. It doesn't make sense to me not to bring SoH in a physical based team. As far as the paragon, I've never liked heros with AR because the monks will be wasting there energy removing the cracked armor and if the hero doesn't maintain it properly then he will have to waste 25e to recast. I found signet of removal to work really well especially when the monk henchmen dont have adequate hex or condition removal. I suppose you could replace it with something like Cultist's fervor and then replace the other e-management on the bar. Notorious BW 03:04, January 25, 2010 (UTC) ::Empathic Removal. However, it wouldn't help the build much. It is, in all honestly, pretty poor. [[User:Karate Jesus|'Karate']] [[User_talk:Karate Jesus|'Jesus']] 03:20, 25 January 2010 :::Who uses henchmen healers? [[User:Jujin|'Jujipoo']] [talk] 04:20, January 25, 2010 (UTC) ::::...Most people? - AthrunFeya - 10:40, January 25, 2010 (UTC) How about: with curses/soul reaping/smite elite of choice depending on situation. This gets rid of the paragon issues (AR would need completely microing by the way, heroes don't use it by themselves) and throws in Bladeturn Refrain which is infinitely sexy and you could still take something like "Fall Back!" if you wanted too. Derv orders has decent energy management and a few heals to boot. I'm not sure about the energy on the last bar (and I wanted to get Foul Feast in but ran out of skill slots...), would need to experiment with different skills and elites a little. - AthrunFeya - 11:11, January 25, 2010 (UTC) : I run something close to the N/Mo bar whenever I do PvE. ER works fine. Icy Veins if your brave! Vincent Evan [Air Henchman] 11:15, January 25, 2010 (UTC) ::Eh it looks pretty obvious to me that if you take 14 curses you bring SS... [[User:Tyraelxy|'Tyrael']] Meow 12:03, January 25, 2010 (UTC) :::it's unlikely you'd take 14 curses because you should spec highly into smiting prayers. That said, if i were running the build I'd probably use something like this: :::(curses 11+1+1, smite=11 soul=8+1). I'm not really a fan of taking MoP on a hero - AthrunFeya - 12:08, January 25, 2010 (UTC) Hmm, or you can swap around some skills or - AthrunFeya - 13:13, January 25, 2010 (UTC) : i'm really not a big fan of SS, bladeturn refrain or FTW. I havent tried it out yet but something like this might work well. the e-management from cultists lets you cast soh on a few melee. And i havent tested this but defender's zeal might also be a good option. I also figured the barrage from the ranger would be better at distributing splinter weapon, triggering mop, and gaining adrenaline faster. It would probably need a zealous bow to work though Notorious BW 01:04, January 26, 2010 (UTC) Great.. who's going to heal? : henchmen say hi? Notorious BW 03:02, January 26, 2010 (UTC) ::Relying on just the henchmen is kinda asking for fail. Especially because this has no prot spirit and no aegis. Life Guardian 03:37, January 26, 2010 (UTC) how about that? again i haven't tried this just theorycraft Notorious BW 01:55, January 27, 2010 (UTC) Lingering Curses isn't a great choice as elite? :\ Some Other 06:20, January 27, 2010 (UTC) :i prefer LC over SS anyday. SS will barely do any damage since the target its cast on will die soon after it is cast. LC hexes a few targets and reduces some of the healing helping me kill faster. Notorious BW 23:38, January 27, 2010 (UTC) ::just tested out my above build in a Dalada uplands vq and it worked great so i am going to change the page to show this build. Notorious BW 01:36, January 29, 2010 (UTC) :::how's the energy on the rit? I cant imagine it looking too healthy. - AthrunFeya - 10:59, January 29, 2010 (UTC) ::::The energy was actually fine. Spirit siphon with 4 spirits provided more then enough energy Notorious BW 12:31, January 29, 2010 (UTC) This is quite a random build...Nubs0wnz 23:53, January 29, 2010 (UTC) MM>LC. A couple para skills aren't worth not speccing Death Magic. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄ 02:39, January 30, 2010 (UTC) Barbs might not be worth running with a 2 second cast. The Orders probably won't use Smite Condition well (and you'll have Monks for that), so you can replace it with Judge's Intervention for a little more fun with minions. You'd have to take 2 Monks with the above. ^ Shit's fucked up; you could drop something for Barbs on the ZB. Vigorous Spirit, Dwayan's Sorrow and Shield Guardian could also be useful. - anon Suggestion With the current builds you may as well run the following to optimise energy efficiency (I'm just lifting exactly the same skills that are currently in the build and dropping them on different characters): The third build is what is causing people headache. We ideally want Orders, Curses (barbs, mop, weaken, enfeebling blood), some condition removal, healing, para stuff...etc etc. Obviously this won't all fit in one build, so I've derived a few different ways of getting some of those into a single bar: idc, i'll think of more ways later. - AthrunFeya - 17:58, January 30, 2010 (UTC) :That i dont really like the orders healer hero idea but that ele is interesting i'll try it out Notorious BW 00:59, January 31, 2010 (UTC) ::The ER Orders works amazingly well. Just did warband of brothers HM with Mhenlo, Devona, Talon Silverwing, and Zho and i cleared it without any problems. The heros i used were the ones you ran with a few tweaks to the rit. Notorious BW 02:40, January 31, 2010 (UTC) SoH "Disable and micro Strength of Honor on the physical damage players" on 3-4 melees? can the hero manage his energy? Illoyon 13:19, January 31, 2010 (UTC) :Spirit Siphon says hi [[User:Tyraelxy|'Tyrael']] No way! 14:38, January 31, 2010 (UTC) ::More likely 2-3 melee, which is fine. Also if its struggling add Castigation Signet instead of Smite Condition. - AthrunFeya - 14:52, January 31, 2010 (UTC) Testing I think this build is ready for testing but i'm not sure if i just change the tag or not Notorious BW 16:26, January 31, 2010 (UTC) :Moved it for you. - AthrunFeya - 16:49, January 31, 2010 (UTC) ::k tyvm Notorious BW 16:52, January 31, 2010 (UTC) I've found that the hero isn't casting judge's intervention on the minions. :this is starting to look dam frikin godly with that sexy orders mage. does orders and curses, +1. also, no ancestors rage? or is bloodsong better?--Bluetapeboy 20:49, February 2, 2010 (UTC) ::ancestors' is in the optionals. - AthrunFeya - 20:50, February 2, 2010 (UTC) i jut say that, lol--Bluetapeboy 20:53, February 2, 2010 (UTC) my build here's what i run . MoP Nuker, the same jagged bones MB, ER Protter and Optional . Either OoV Protter / Restoration / Splinter or SoS Restoration . What do you think ? --Lusciious 15:31, February 9, 2010 (UTC) So this build. I'm not gonna revote to avoid 1RV, but really think this shouldn't be in great. Maybe good, not great. *Your healing comes from monk henchies, or Chiyo or whatever. They have very little/bad energy management, meaning under heavy pressure = dead. *Blood bond HEALS your minions, = less kersplodeyness = less dead enemies = more dead you. *Heroes can't use summon spirits, which means your Rit will cast SoS and then have to wait 30s to cast again. At the rate which things die in PvE, you could say you're wasting your elite slot there since your spirits will be left behind. Let's look at Sab: *Epic healer which is strong under pressure, and has strong party heals. Healer henchies have few/no party heals. *same MM *curses necro which does more damage than the SoS and incorporates all but the orders from your orders ele. *Room for pure-damage henchies, pew pew, and let's face it, henchies are better at damage than healing (Mhenlo lolol vs say, Herta or Gehraz even) For a hero build to be great, it has to be practically invincible. Take discord, with which I VQ'd Gandara, the Moon Fortress without completing "a thorn in Varesh's side" beforehand, H/H, without pulling the mobs apart. I just let them run at me as they spawned (all at once). Go try that with this, and tell me if it deserves great. tl;dr: sucks compared to discord and sab. And yes, you can compare all hero build to those two. -- Star talk 23:29, March 15, 2010 (UTC) :Why yes, my logic is irrefutable. -- Star talk 00:39, March 20, 2010 (UTC) ::more likely that no-one can be bothered to dispute it, whether you personally like it or not doesnt make it a good or bad build. personally i've had no problems with the team build (and i do use it rather a lot) and no one else has voiced any concerns about this build or about any of the individual hero builds. All i can conclude from this really is that you must be doing something exceedingly wrong to have so much of a problem. I'm tempted to say, even, that the Rit hero particularly is one of the best bars you can use as a phys char (superior to that of the sabway SS, when running phys) - ''Athrun''[[User talk:Athrun Feya|''Feya]] - 14:25, March 20, 2010 (UTC) Not enough conditions and hex removal. Not enough (if any) red barring. Sabway has better condition removal and red barring than this build and condition removal is important for a physical who can be blinded or weakened. If you miss, you can't gain adrenaline. Again, I can't login and rate this build any worse than 'Great!' because my vote would be removed as it has already been decided this is the targeted rating. 15:16, March 24, 2010 (UTC) :Foul Feast+Plauge Sending on the Orders! That should be enough condition removal and, thanks to ER, won't really hurt it at all. Heroes never remove hexes with any priority and I fight through them just fine (pull mobs into the minions so they absorb the initial wave of hexes), so adding in one more hex removal won't do much. I'd drop Awaken the Blood and Mark of Pain (heroes are terrible at it) in most cases where I need the condition removal. Henchies can easily take up the slack in healing, especially with SY being fueled by the orders. [[User:Toraen|'Toraen']]TheJanitorimage:ToraenSig2.png 16:18, 24 March 2010 (UTC) ::Foul Feast is not worth it on secondary necro and you dont need Plague Sending. SY doesnt mean no red barring required. There are many areas with conditions stacking and 1 smite condition every 7s is not going to cut it. As for hex removal, it is not as important as the condition removal. I prefer Convert Hexes to Smite Hex, since it removes more hexes but the drawback is it needs more energy. 16:48, March 24, 2010 (UTC) :::Foul Feast always removes all conditions from its target, regardless of spec. An ER orders doesn't need the energy + health gain from it because the elite already does that. And I didn't say take no redbarring. Healer hench actually are good enough at it since the henchman update that with SY they really shouldn't be having problems. [[User:Toraen|'Toraen']]TheJanitorimage:ToraenSig2.png 17:33, 24 March 2010 (UTC) ::::If you think it is better for Foul Feast to be on the ER then so be it. It is better than nothing. Sabway ignored bringing a hex removal because it has good red barring to out heal most hexes. Sab said that herself so I am not pulling this fact out of thin air. SY doesn't provide that, so your monk hench healer better be top notch in hex heavy areas. :) DarkSpirit 19:28, March 24, 2010 (UTC) ::This build cannot be compared to discord or sabway however I think there are some uses for it. In Normal Mode it works better than sabway as you dont need that much healing and a Physical with all those buffs = more damage than SS. For HM it was pretty weak but like I said this could be very well used if you are doing dungeons in NM, for which it works great. The Time Less One 19:59, April 24, 2010 (UTC) I dont like the SoS smite maybe go for smite support but the rest works great I have tried this and i noticed that the weaker mobs were dead in an instant, but the mobs that were just slightly more stronger could wipe out an entire party in a matter of seconds in HM. I find Sabs or Spiritway to be way more succesful for a melee character. tempted to change the ER to something like this: cuz everyones bad and needs more heals, apparently. of course i'll keep a mention in that you can still use ER but.. - [[User:Athrun Feya|''Athrun]][[User talk:Athrun Feya|''Feya]] - 17:37, May 8, 2010 (UTC) :That'd be cool. What Elites though? Spaggage [[User talk:Spaggage|talk]] 18:21, May 8, 2010 (UTC) ::i take ravenous gaze since its cheap. could also use SV or some resto elite. - [[User:Athrun Feya|''Athrun]][[User talk:Athrun Feya|''Feya]] - 18:24, May 8, 2010 (UTC) :::CF and Dark Fury > Signet of Lost Souls :D Though your heroes would waste their precious energy on removing bleeding the entire time. Brandnew 18:35, May 8, 2010 (UTC) ::::meh, i was trying to offer something that wasn't a full-on orders. problem is if you do take DF and an orders skill is heroes spend most their time casting those skills, which isn't ideal when its also your healer. - [[User:Athrun Feya|''Athrun]][[User talk:Athrun Feya|''Feya]] - 18:38, May 8, 2010 (UTC) :::::^one order is bad enough if your going to rely on it for healing. i'd rather use it over er though--[[User:Relyk|'Relyk']] talk 01:34, May 9, 2010 (UTC) ::::::id drop pwk. I know its good party wide healing but that prevents the necro from using a 40/20/20% staff. One of those staffs will significantly decrease the time it spends using OoP and increase how much actual healing it does. Notorious BW 14:18, July 8, 2010 (UTC) Microing = Bad? Isn't it unnecessairy to micro SoH? Because when you attack heroes cast it on you while in battle and they remove it when out of battle, doesn't that save much more energy? [[User:Fleshcrawler Soban|'Fleshcrawler']] [[User talk:Fleshcrawler Soban|'Soban']] 18:21, May 30, 2010 (UTC) :It takes 2 seconds to cast per physical, and you really want your hero to be casting other things in the middle of battle. It's also just much better to ensure it stays up for consistent damage output. The hero is fine on energy anyway thanks to Spirit Siphon. [[User:Toraen|'Toraen']]TheJanitorimage:ToraenSig2.png 22:56, 30 May 2010 (UTC) Build Best. ever 19:44, May 30, 2010 (UTC) For Derv Primary Since almost any derv that wants to do decent damage in PVE uses Aura of Holy Flame, I think there should be an alternative hero to the orders ele, or at least an alternative to HoHF. -- 19:47, June 15, 2010 (UTC) :You mean Aura of Holy Might correct? Whenever I run a scythe ranger in combination with an MM, I usually drop AoHM for EBSoH to boost damage of all allies anyway. [[User:Toraen|'Toraen']]TheJanitorimage:ToraenSig2.png 04:14, 16 June 2010 (UTC) Vs. Spiritway? How does this compare to spiritway in most HM areas, out of curiosity? Have spiritway currently on my meleers, and don't want to change everything before getting some reviews from people who have used both. --Ghostwheel 09:36, June 25, 2010 (UTC) : Ended up going ahead and trying this out on my ER Infuser, Vekk was a pain to rune up and equip. Fortunately I had a Kyril's Fervor lying around from when I tried the arcane orders derv build as part of racway (spiritway > racway after much testing), so that wasn't too hard to finagle. So after I had everything redone for this build, I took the E/Mo and went out to do Gyala Hatchery in HM. : I hadn't done it before on that character, so I figured that it would be a good testing ground--on one hand, you need to kill enemies quickly, while on the other hand you need to take care of the turtles. On top of that, as a bonder I could always infuse the turtles myself if things looked grim, and they weren't too squishy in HM so I'd have time to respond. So in I go, picking up the two archery henchmen and a warrior and mini-ing the smiter to use Strength of Honor on all 3. : In short, it kinda sucked. As opposed to previous games when I had more than enough healing, the smiter didn't compare to spiritway's resto-rit as far as red-barring went. The necro was pretty much the same as spiritway, but the lack of spirits/targets to fool the AI from the last rit left much to be desired. I and the henchie monk were left desperately healing, and I got around halfway through the mission before losing two of the large turtles. Soon after two young turtles died, and I got out, frustrated with the results. : So, sick of the build, I switched over to Spiritway again--maybe it was just me? Maybe I couldn't heal right on this mission? Maybe I had made some mistake? Taking spiritway for a spin would let me know if it was me or the build. And with spiritway... I completed the mission quickly and easily. Finally, in comparison, I think spiritway trumps this build. : (ATM, my ranking of the "cookie-cutter" builds go Racway < Physicalway < Sabway < Discordway < Spiritway, with Physicalway and Sabway switched in there, preferring Discordway on my Necro and Mesmer (might change for the mes soonish, runs out of energy quickly, no good secondary condition) and spiritway for the others. Imbagon does beautifully with spiritway in my experience.) : tl;dr - Physway < Spiritway. --Ghostwheel 09:35, June 26, 2010 (UTC) ::Mmm, yeah, you pretty much nailed it. It is extremely difficult to beat the results that spiritway puts out, and for the areas that are too easy for spiritway, discord is pretty much the best option. You can arguably have better results from sabway than discord if you drop the SS for a SoS with SoH, but that's only on a melee. Life Guardian 09:38, June 26, 2010 (UTC) :::You said you tried this build while running an ER infuser yourself? It's really designed with physical '''players' in mind. The physical henchmen just aren't very good, and can't trigger the buffs all that amazingly. Also, SoH doesn't do anything for the archery henchmen. It only affects melee. [[User:Toraen|'Toraen']]TheJanitorimage:ToraenSig2.png 10:42, 26 June 2010 (UTC) :::: Ah, that might be part of it. But I don't think it would help all that much on my other physical PCs. My imbagon wouldn't get much help from SoH (and keeps up SY well enough on his own, since I spec for adrenaline gain rather than damage using Spear of Fury), my dervish wouldn't benefit from some of the buffs due to the usual derv buff, my scythe-sin might benefit slightly, but not much from the adrenaline gain enchantment, and the scythe-ranger would be in the same pickle. I roll through most PvE HM areas just fine with spiritway on those builds, and without the strong(er) healing and extra targets that spiritway brings, I don't think I'd do as well with this build due to the high damage that many enemies in HM have. --Ghostwheel 14:30, June 26, 2010 (UTC) :::::errm, yeah the whole idea of the build is to buff up your melee (note: imba = not melee) char. Obviously if you're not running a melee char this would would be outright terrible. [[User:Athrun Feya|'Athrun']] [[User talk:Athrun Feya|'Feya']] 20:41, June 28, 2010 (UTC) :::::: So I went ahead and gave this another shot; I ran the build on my warrior, and figuring that Mark of Pain + Barbs would be active I used the HB War. To test this out, I went on the Smell of Titan In the Morning, picking up "By Ural's Hammer" and Enraging Charge for my optionals. :::::: I had the rit of this build maintain Strength of Honor on both myself and Talon Silverwing. Devona and the two monks were the last three henchies. The biggest problem that I had was that there isn't enough healing for the potential spikes of damage that HM bring on; whereas Spiritway has a third "healer" in the rit, as well as an anti-spike skill that can be used at the drop of a hat (Protective was Kaolai--it's incredible how often that bit of extra healing has saved my whole party), this one doesn't have anything as far as that goes. :::::: Can anyone think of what one can replace for some more healing? The one thing that comes to mind is an arcane orders derv--though that doesn't really satisfy me, since it can't heal itself after sacrificing health all that well, nor does it have the energy management of the ER hero. Altnernatively, we could switch out the smiting on the SoS hero, and switch in some restoration--does SoH make that big of a difference? :::::: Another solution perhaps could be switching either Smite Condition or Smite Hex for Reversal of Damage. (And maybe the other with Judge's Intervention, but with how fast packets of damage come in in HM, I don't think it'd make any difference if you're that close to death...) If you're worried about the damage loss, one could always bring Zealot's Fire, which will increase the damage upon casting both that and Ancestor's Rage by 29 (+22% damage for +20% energy for AR). :::::: tl;dr: Less healing means less survivability than spiritway. Is there any way to fix this problem? --Ghostwheel 08:54, July 7, 2010 (UTC) :::::::There's a N/Rt orders variant with lots of heals on the build page if you need the extra heals. Hareemuhhh.talk? 12:38, July 9, 2010 (UTC) :::::::: Yep, I've been trying that lately and it seems to work pretty well. Went with the bar as listed there, but instead of Order of Pain I went with Order of the Vampire and Blood Ritual. Are there any better skills that come to mind? :::::::: Also, has anyone else noticed that Razah never seems to use Ancestors' Rage? Does Xandra do a better job at it, or should I switch it out for something else? --Ghostwheel 22:09, July 9, 2010 (UTC) :::::::::they use it just fine. they probably cast it on the other melee or ur doing something wrong--[[User:Relyk|'Relyk']] talk 03:34, July 10, 2010 (UTC) :::::::::: Did extensive testing, even when all their other skills are disabled and that's the only choice... they still don't use it. Tried it against the Master of Damage, the only time when they actually used it properly was when I targeted myself and micro'd it. That kind of micro-ing is a pain in the middle of battle, and just becomes a distraction, removing it as viable from the build IMO. --Ghostwheel 12:07, July 10, 2010 (UTC) :::::::::::Was he on avoid combat? Xandra uses it fine (although it's never really that effective unless you micro it). Hareemuhhh.talk? 12:40, July 10, 2010 (UTC) :::::::::::: Was on guard--I didn't test it on aggressive. Do they actually use it when set in that mode? --Ghostwheel 13:01, July 10, 2010 (UTC) :::::::::::: Tested it against the Master of Damage bringing just Razah, in both cases when I attempted to disable all his other skills and allow him to use them as he wished, AND when I tried him on both guard and aggressive he refused to use Ancestor's Rage except when I micro'd it. Maybe it's a recent bug? --Ghostwheel 13:12, July 10, 2010 (UTC) Good? Is this team any good in HM? I'm a dervish primary, and I'm looking for a good hero set to compliment him. -- 19:01, June 28, 2010 (UTC) :Go D/W and have "Save yourselves!" and it will work well for you.--Ikimono...And my Axe! 19:02, June 28, 2010 (UTC) I don't like the fact that this has no curses for 4-6 man areas. I use this: Possible variant? And how could I improve it? Hareemuhhh.talk? 12:41, July 7, 2010 (UTC) : Lack of Soul Reaping for the nec makes it suck. What I'm using currently, which seems to work well, is the following: : : : :--Ghostwheel 12:15, July 10, 2010 (UTC) ::Ehh lack of sr for which nec? The orders doesn't need it much because of cultists but it still has 6+1. Hareemuhhh.talk? 12:27, July 10, 2010 (UTC) ::: The Soul Reaping amount doesn't show up on the page you linked to under attributes. Taking that into account it looks better, but I'd be very wary of heroes + CF, since I imagine they waste most of their energy attempting to remove the bleeding caused by CF. Do you find that this happens often? ::: Beyond that, some of the synergies in the build I presented include Judge's Intervention (GREAT on minions, since it deals awesome armor-ignoring damage for its energy cost), Order of the Vampire (even more life-stealing for the meleer(s?)), Blood Ritual to help the Rit manage energy (since sometimes I can have SoH on up to three meleers at a time when not alone), and great energy-management all around between spirit siphon/blood ritual/signet of lost souls. --Ghostwheel 13:05, July 10, 2010 (UTC) Instead of the ER Orders: And replace SoS on the other rit with Empathic Removal. More AoE, more support, more strong. -- Jai 03:11, August 8, 2010 (UTC) :I'd say that 2x Splinter, 2x Arage, and Empathic makes up for not having Mark of Pain/Barbs. Most people don't bother with balling/micro to make MoP worthwhile anyway. [[User:Toraen|'Toraen']]TheJanitorimage:ToraenSig2.png 08:21, 10 August 2010 (UTC) ::Also, heroes fail to use Barbs or MoP well. They cast both late, and Barbs is made worse by the 2 sec cast time (remember, shit should die in like 3 seconds, 5 max). And as we all know they don't pick targets for MoP effectively, so it generally gets wasted. If no one disagrees, I'll change the mainbar as soon as I get around to it. -- Jai 14:50, August 10, 2010 (UTC)